The Outsiders, Part 1
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Our Guests
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B.A. (Philosophy), Univ of MN
M.Div. Yale Divinity School
Ph.D. Princeton Theological Seminary
Senior Pastor - Woodland Hills Church (1992-present)
President/Founder - Reknew Ministries
Adjunct Professor - Northern Seminary (2017-present)
Professor of Theology - Bethel University (1987 - 2004)
Author/CoAuthor of 23 books
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Terry Hiebert is the Interim President at Steinbach Bible College.
Terry enjoys teaching theology, ethics, philosophy, and history. He believes that learning is more than just memorizing information or taking notes in class. Rather, the goal of teaching involves students actively engaging in loving God with their minds and hearts. He finds joy in mentoring students and young ministry leaders in pursuing God’s calling in life and ministry. In years as a ministry leader, he has desired a God’s presence for renewing persons and churches.
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Cameron McKenzie is the lead pastor at Fort Garry EMC in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
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Carol Penner teaches and writes in the area of practical theology and after many years as a pastor in various Mennonite congregations, she joined the faculty at Grebel. Her research interests include feminist theology and Mennonite peace theology, and abuse issues. She has a popular blog of her worship resources at www.leadinginworship.com.
Travis, Stephanie, Jen and Deborah from Many Rooms Church Community, Winnipeg, Manitoba
Links and Resources
Books
The World at War, The Church at Peace, Jon Bonk
The Crucifixion of the Warrior God, Greg Boyd
Information on William McKenzie, Great-Grandfather of Cameron McKenzie
Music
First Communion, Dane Joneshill
(Spotify | YouTube Music)
Who I Am, Dane Joneshill
(Spotify | YouTube Music | Apple Music)
Notable Quotes
How do Other Faith Traditions View Jesus’ Teaching about Loving our Enemies?
The secular revolution in society has tried to pursue this idea of morality without God, morality without religion, and as a whole our secular society is resistant to the idea of war. ~Cameron McKenzie
When it comes to the question of war particularly, the Roman Catholic Catechism is clear that we work by all means for the avoidance of war. This is what we do. There's a permanent validity to moral law that even an armed conflict—and it does recognize that the state collectively has to sometimes exercise coercive force for the good of the state, for the good of the people, for the good of the geopolitical situation—but even in that, the absolute validity of moral law is never surrendered. ~Cameron McKenzie
Many traditions would see [Jesus’ teachings on nonviolence] as just not practical. Yes, in an ideal world we would all be that way, but in the real world we do have enemies and we have to use force occasionally and I would say most Anabaptists probably believe that too. ~Dr. Carol Penner
What does conscientious objection mean? I think it should mean that I am nonviolent. I will not use violence on anyone—not in a war with a gun and not in my family with my hands—like I will not be violent and how do we encourage people to see nonviolence as something more than a position about war? ~Dr. Carol Penner
Something that I've come to really appreciate over time, is that it's okay to be convinced of the soundness of an idea and leave room for the fact that somebody else is reading the same tradition differently than you. So, it's not about being right versus wrong. It's about having the integrity to live into what you think the text says while leaving room for your sister or your brother in the faith to read it differently and then creating the conversation. ~Cameron McKenzie
Hinduism has non-violent aspects. Jainism actually is built very strongly on that. Buddhism has non-violent aspects as well. There are traditions within Islam and there are Muslims who say that the Quran does teach non-violence just like Christians will say that the Bible teaches non-violence. Yet in the Bible, we also have these Old Testament examples of violence and so people point to the violent history of Christianity as well. ~Dr. Terry Hiebert
The Jehovah's Witnesses also think of it as peaceful. They do not go to war, they technically don't do any kind of violence either. ~Deborah
I would assume that you have to compartmentalize your thinking to say, “Okay, it's okay to go to war,” like you're putting aside your Christianity and you're not following Jesus's teachings and you're going to do something patriotic or political for your country, rather than for the Kingdom, right? So, it's the earthly kingdom versus the heavenly kingdom. ~Travis
The first one is that often theologians or Bible interpreters have said that Jesus’ teachings are meant to apply to our personal relationships, but not to national enemies and life-threatening enemies and things like that. It has to do with just our personal everyday relationships. The trouble with that view, if I can go ahead and put in my perspective on these other views of other interpretations of Matthew 5:43-45, is Jesus doesn't qualify his teaching in any way. ~Greg Boyd
The second way, and these go hand in hand often, is a just war approach and the idea is that yeah we should love our enemies, but obviously—this is how the logic goes—obviously, when your life's being threatened, and when your nation’s under attack God understands, expects us to pick up arms and to defend ourselves. ~Dr. Greg Boyd
Nobody fights wars they think are unjust. Putin right now thinks he's on the side of justice. It's twisted, but in his framework, he thinks he's doing the just thing. So just war theory, in my opinion, also says, let's continue to do what we're doing. So, love your enemies unless we want to go to war like we've always been doing and we need to kill to defend ourselves like we've always been doing. ~Greg Boyd
Can we be people who actually love their enemies and do good to their enemies? The worst kind of enemies, even when it means that they get killed? Why? Because that's what God did for us. ~Greg Boyd
